Hi Mike, Welcome to the naturist community! I don't like to label people as problems. That doesn't show respect or acceptance. Similarly, as I expressed in another reply, I don't like to label words/acronyms as "dirty" language. This isn't an agenda. It's a way in which we can speak about how to support everyone whom is not included in mainstream programming.
And let's face it, naturists tend to not be included in any mainstream programming, so we have a common bond to start with on that issue. Policies that support anti-harassment (for example, telling another person "Your body, my choice), that actively seek to rectify discrimination based on race or sexuality, and that articulate codes of conduct on ways we interact with each other are as old as time.
I believe that those seeking to keep the naturist community alive are not just seeking to keep places that are clothing optional open but also the principles on which naturism has existed for years. An articulation of them seeks to preserve this.
I've tried tirelessly to be an advocate for these very principles over the last few years, and let me tell you... It's a thankless and frustrating job. You are right to be skeptical. Even on Wreck Beach, a place that... Before the pandemic... Was a Haven of comfort and safety for all, have I seen a massive increase in disgusting behavior from men, including a few long time regulars that have suddenly become emboldened enough that they've created little 'cliques' where they only allow 'young hot people' in their spaces, while simultaneously going on the Wreck Beach Facebook group to lament the lack of good looking tanned people.
Then there's ONLINE. From Twitter to private owned websites, the proliferation of misogyny has been brutal. 'Nudist' men shoving porn and erotica into everyone's faces, commenting endlessly on women's accounts with gross objectification, posting penis-centric selfies, attacking anyone that calls them out, commenting negatively on diversity stories, etc.
We've seen plenty of examples here on Planet Nude as well, and that's just the ones that are bold enough to be outwardly nasty... Because you're right in that we have a problem with too many people that are SILENT on this issue. Perhaps they don't want to rock the boat. Perhaps they've built friendships they aren't strong enough to stand up to, perhaps they sit in agreement but don't want to say it out loud yet... Whatever the case, the most frustrating thing for me is watching too many people simply stay silent as we watch society devolve in real time all around us. While women disappear from nudist spaces consistently, and we're left with a hundred posts from men (and some women that are married to the patriarchy) wondering where the hell the women are.
Here's the thing men.. Women aren't stupid. They see you. They see what you are, and what you aren't. They aren't going to hang out in spaces where they are being objectified, depowered and infantilized. They aren't going to feel free and safe in spaces filled with pornography and rude comments and negative reactions to queer inclusivity and silence or hostility to progressive issues.
And while there are some women that are able to stick with it and fight for the right to be in these spaces, it can't be used as an anecdote that so many men's awful behaviour is fine. It isn't. The more we accept or stay silent about that behaviour the more it will grow, and everyone has a breaking point. I'm watching more and more long time nudist advocates fleeing the community, and it's upsetting and insane.
Exactly, we are no different to journalists and should be accountable for our views, posts etc.
If we quote facts figures then we should be able to provide proof if challenged, there is so much disinformation that now invades social media. People hide behind false identities and get away with gross conduct on a daily basis.
I believe if you want to engage on social media then you must provide some form of ID that links you to your profile. I know people will scream "Nanny State" but it may may people think before making crass comments and denigrating people.
Something has to be done or women will give up on SM, stop going to beaches, clubs, resorts ect. because they feel threatened.
It is very scary and contrary to how I was brought up and lived my life. I see it getting much worse before better especially with what has happened in the States.
Then please keep living your life the way you know is right so that others can also live their lives. Be brave so that you can live your life knowing you are right with yourself.
To touch on one of the many points you raise, I think the notion of diversity, equity, and inclusion is going to need a rebrand. "They" have managed to make "DEI" a dirty, much derided term. And while "they" do indeed favor discrimination, marginalization, and exclusion, many still aren't willing to admit it out loud, so a new expression is needed to fight discrimination, marginalization, and exclusion. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's too late for the USA.
It's never too late. We can't start thinking like that. We just need to be stronger about being more steadfast. Loud. Strong. Drown out the crap... And I don't mean online, although it's true there as well, but where it would be effective for real is offline. Don't allow people to be that way. Cut them out of your lives. Forbid them from being in spaces. Vocally counter their rhetoric at every turn.
I believe that the majority of people want a better world, but we've been conditioned all our lives that respect = quiet. That conformity = value. That obiedience = love.
We have experience with them trying to create newspeak. Just shake your head and ignore them. This is not about trying to win anyone over. It is about keeping the naturist community thriving, which has been identified as a key issue.
You know what really gets on the nerves of people with narcissistic personalities? It's not engaging with them. Ignoring them. Resistance is existence and ongoing existence for naturism is clearly communicating our values in our spaces.
If people who are not affected by these things feel reluctant to do so, imagine how the people who are affected feel. Imagine how silence is sending the message that the simple assertion of the values you have is not worth it for another human being. That you won't even use your voice, your face, your name to articulate your own values that could help them find common ground.
When I talk about being vocal I don't mean engaging in arguments or 'conversation', I mean making a blunt statement of 'this is not acceptable' and then walking away, or, if you're in the position to, banning them from that space. Management, supervisors, etc can do this. For those worried about losing revenue believe me when I say that showing a strong front against hate will lead to far more people spending their income with you than the other way around... Unless you peddle hate.
I respectfully disagree that this is what DEI stands for -- I actually feel it's similar to what you described and think those are really great starting places for conversations. If you have been shamed by someone in relation to this before, I offer sincere empathy. I know neither of us can take responsibility for each other's experiences, but dialogue about acceptance and shared vulnerability are good places to build from. For me, I would like to reserve the right to use the acronym and full words of diversity, equity and inclusion, because those are principles that embody a lot of integrity.
I also want to touch on something I missed in my original comment, and that's the rhetoric we often get when we try to get these points across of 'just focus on the positive and lead by example'. Guess what? That doesn't always work. Sometimes the bad is so prominent that it just drowns the positive out and burns out the person trying so hard.
Take my experience in one online community. When I first joined it was a wonderful experience. People seemed upbeat and said all the right things. However, as time went by I noticed something. While 'registered user' numbers kept rising, engagement started falling. Close to the end of my time there a trend was starting that led to my eventual departure. That of men posting things that were both outright against the rules and things that pushed the edge. While the outright stuff WAS dealt with, the stuff that pushed the edges kept getting excuses thrown as to why it should be allowed to remain. Yet as these images kept growing, the posts from other members dropped. Especially from accounts from women and families. The other disturbing aspect was that these images were getting FAR more 'likes' and positive comments than images of a more positive and uplifting nature. So not only was the community making excuses for these images, but they were being actively complicit in supporting them... And then also wondering why more women and family accounts weren't active.
Try as I might, no amount of trying to push a positive message worked... Until I finally burnt out, tired and angry, and felt I had no choice but to cut my losses while I could.
The true tragedy is that the owners of this site are some of the most positive people I've ever met... But they unfortunately fell into the same trap that people relying on a naturist space income fall into. They couldn't take hard stances when it became increasingly clear that their main source of that income was increasingly men looking to transform the space into a cruising venue.
Yet, had they been more concerned with quality over quantity earlier on... Perhaps they could have stemmed that flow. I don't know. Perhaps not. It definitely takes more than just the leadership to maintain a community.
I fully agree that women face daunting circumstances for participation in naturism. And it's fine for sensible men to advocate opposing the behavior of so many male (pseudo-)naturists. But righteous indignation of a few goes only so far and is hardly sufficient.
I don't know about other countries, but there should be a U.S. naturist organization that is of, by, and for women. One in which male participation is welcome - if and only if they support female naturists with actions, not just words.
AANR now has a female president, and that's great. But how much will that change anything? TNS(F) has always had a strong female presence in its leadership. Nicky has been there from the beginning and deserves praise for her efforts. Yet TNS keeps shrinking. AANR (and TNSF possibly) should have a woman who's tasked to promote naturism to women, just as British Naturism does.
So where to from here? Who's going to step up to stimulate actions, not just words?
Question: Should there be a female-oriented organization to arrange and promote female-only gatherings around the country? Participants in such gatherings could also arrange for special mixed-gender events at established naturist clubs, perhaps if gender parity was required.
The issue with that approach is that if the only solution for women is to build their own spaces, they would likely be for women only. Many female-led events tend to be exclusively for women. And I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling exhausted that their rights aren't stood up for but their coattails are asked to be ridden.
A woman-focused organization doesn't imply women-only. The purpose would be to use their resources to encourage women, not discourage men (if they honestly support women). Women-only events might be few, but approximate gender-balance should be encouraged more often than it is now (which is rare). It's just sensible for women to have as safe and comfortable entry to naturism as possible.
I would note that in various other countries where naturism exists, local organizations sometimes rent swimming pools for swimsuit-optional women-only use. That seems like a fine way for women to ease into naturism.
I'd prefer to say that it's up to BOTH men and women taking the lead in the best (though different) ways that they can. Men need to show no tolerance for the bad behavior of other men. But women need the courage to make their own contributions - and not assume that would be futile.
Yes, and the efforts of MEN can likewise only go so far. Men have a negative role: to restrain inconsiderate men. Women have a positive role to promote naturism to other women.
(1) The author say he doesn't want to visit a specific naturist community he is familiar with, a community of "people I’d come to know and respect"... because why exactly? He thinks the people he knows and respects may suddenly reveal themselves to be misogynistic? Or is it something else? I'm not sure.
(2) "the silence from so many about this pervasive misogyny" seems to be the general worry. But what is the pervasive misogyny exactly? what are a few specific examples of it? and is it truly getting worse? (people tend to always be thinking everything is getting worse... such as rates of violence, which are actually getting better pretty much every year, minus 2020, for decades.) - Does it come down to a general feeling about Trump... that most of the people who voted for him are sexist? I don't really think there is evidence for that: https://musaalgharbi.substack.com/p/a-graveyard-of-bad-election-narratives
(3) if people need to speak out against pervasive misogyny, as the author wishes, what is a good way to do it? I'm all for it, but like what should the men at his naturist group do exactly? Since they already seem to not act misogynistic... should they simply state every so often "I don't like misogyny"?
This article is just lacking specifics. I would be interested to read a version that has a few details filled in.
I also believe in trusting people. Especially one's own friends and communities. Let's not let our fears and possible political disagreements destroy ourselves and our communities based on hunches.
The author is a woman. And the woman is being very careful about not dividing along political lines. And there have been multiple headlines of the same sort about misogyny increasing; a simple Google search will turn that up. Thank you and have a good day.
Ah I see. Thank you for the clarification, and my bad that I made an assumption that this was a man writing, not sure why I read it like that. And I understand better your perspective just with that alone.
Misogyny is definitely something that is a problem, around all corners and definitely within naturism. And I'm sorry if you have had to deal with it, and I'm sure you have.
As far as stats I am aware of (from google searching and more), sexual assualt / r*pe / harassment / etc, are all on a continuous long term decrease, at least here in the US. As is at least some of the ease with which men have been able to do at least some of these things, due in large part to the much needed #metoo movement. I'm not saying that misogyny isn't still a big problem. And that's not to say that it can't increase all of a sudden back to previous levels. - But due to all the stats I am aware of, it is decreasing. - But there also is a pretty big delay of a year or two, in stats like this being compiled... so it's also true that if things are getting worse now, it might not be exactly known the extent, for some time. - Again, unless I am just missing some stats that I am unaware of.
I do wonder if the anonymous / non-face-to-face nature of the internet, alongside many trolls and bots, and presidents :( , does increase some of the vocality of misogyny in online spheres and in random discussions?
I wonder if various women are feeling men being more misogynistic to them in their actual lives lately? Or if it is more a perception based on viral characters and trolls and perhaps divisive media as well amplifying all the worst things that happen and all the worst things about everyone.
I'm not sure, I'm open to being wrong about some of this.
And again, my bad and I apologize for a part of what I initially said in my initial reading. I can understand big time any woman being unsure about being around 80% of men, in any and all cases.
No worries. I hadn't realized the gender ambiguity of a name with only initials prior to this, which was not my intention when choosing it as a handle.
Just FYI, there's a lot of articles remarking on the increase in misogynistic speech online. Nick Fuentes started it but others are rapidly adding to it, such as Andrew Tate. And Tate has been active in creating attitudes like this among young males for a long time, along with many others.
The problem with allowing speech like this is that when it becomes more normalized/less taboo, it changes how people see the person they are speaking of. It objectifies and dehumanizes them. When that happens, it becomes easier for them to attack others because they don't see the other person as human. That is when violence starts to go up.
Unfortunately, violence against women and girls is not on a continual decline. The pandemic saw an increase in violence for a variety of reasons. It makes sense it may have somewhat declined from there but it's only a matter of time until it goes up if these words are not countered.
This is why words matter. Speaking up matters. Standing up matters. More than people might realize.
Thank you for engaging kindly with me despite my initial stupidity in some of what I said/assumed.
And thank you for providing some concrete specifics like the popularity of Fuentes and Tate, that helps me to ground some of your thoughts in specific examples. I am sometimes out of the loop with certain things so that's helpful to keep me from making my own guesses about what you are referring to; and these things do also make sense.
That's also true that violence had one of the biggest single-year spikes in American history in 2020. Goes to show that things can get worse quickly as you rightfully point out. - I believe black males saw the brunt of that 2020 increase, at least for homicide, but I'm sure it went up for women as well. -- Thankfully even the 2020 violence rate was lower than most of American history, it was just crazy in how rapid of an increase it was from the previous year. Thankfully it went back down and hopefully it stays down and goes even way lower, but that will only happen with people such as yourself standing up as you do 🙏
Thank you so much, as always, for bravely speaking your words into the world! I wish there were more women on your comments' thread- I wish there were more women in the naturist community but as you said, that's a symptom and not the problem. The problem is we do not have enough supporters in the naturist community for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging- nor enough who accept and value those who look different than a typical nudist resort. They may feel they do, but if they do not use their voice as you have and publicize it, then we will continue to dissolve and lose all those naturist philosophies we all know and love to objectification, open harassment, and misogyny. And so the reticent are the problem to the future of modern American Nudism and not bureaucrats nor real estate agents. It's not partisan, it's respect and kindness.
Not going to an event because there "might" be misogyny seems a bit extreme. There is no way to force women to come to an naturist event if they don't want to. A ratio of 3 - 5 five to one seems about normal for most events.
The last time I went camping bare, it was three guys and one woman. The last nude hike I went on, there were seven guys and no women. Another time it was two and five. Yet, I didn't see any misogyny at all. The smaller number of women were respected and enjoyed the activity. If they felt unwelcome or put upon, they would not show up again.
I have come to accept that it is what it is. Naturist activities where equal numbers show up have to be carefully curated. I don't go to naturist activities to pick up on women so the ratio does not matter. The absence of women doesn't in any way imply discrimination; it is a matter of differing choices between the genders. It has more to do with norms in the larger culture.
You can't push women into naturism and excluding men in the search for a balance is just another form of discrimination.. You can only make it inviting and safe. If more men than women choose to be naturists, that's not something naturists can control.
Hi Fred -- I read your note when you posted and didn't feel I was in the right mindset to reply. But I saw it again in my notifications and wanted to do so now.
I understand what you're saying in terms of the practicalities of things. I think most women who practice naturism are accustomed to it. However, from my perspective, I not only have to do the work of framing things for another gender who may not see things the way I do because I am a minority, but I also need to do the work of honouring my own boundaries emotionally.
So no, I don't think choosing not to go because of what is in the news or on social media or other things that may come up is extreme. It's actually very good self-care. I hope that you can respect this perspective as well as your own.
In my city, I am the caretaker of a relaxation meditation space. We have agreements a code of conduct, and we send out examples of modeling behavior to our community. For example, when someone walks into the space, here's how you introduce yourself and we give an example. We don't tell people they have to do this, but it is an agreement that. We will be mindful in the space. We have modeling behavior, suggestions for example if someone's in the sauna, and you want the temperature changed here are some ways to communicate that. We never say this is what you have to do, but having that type of posting for people to read gets people to be mindful of how they talk to one another and share the space in a respectful way.
The most interesting aspect of this community is that there are only maybe five of our 100 community members that identify as a nudist a naturist. All of the other people are textiles who have a greed to come to the space to share in exploring the radical vulnerability of healthy, social, naked environment.
It can work the thing that I've noticed for other communities I've visited is there is this general agreement of how to act toward one another yet? There isn't a specific postings modeling the behavior that is expected.
what would that look like? for example this is one of our postings:
The Community Do’s
Do say hello to our new members or those whom you have not yet met.
Do offer a friendly handshake
guys: the handshake means hello nothing more nothing less
gals: the handshake means hello nothing more nothing less
Do take a shower before entering the tub and after a sauna or massage. If you don’t know the person
showering, ASK if they mind you using the other shower. Be mindful of those waiting to
shower, SHARE THE HOT WATER PLEASE
Do find comfort/acceptance in your skin.
Respect and honor the extraordinary trust of the emotional and physical nakedness of the space. If you are in transition exploring this comfort yet still too vulnerable, DO wear a towel though not in the tubs. Guests may wear a suit(no underwear) members MUST be at a point of comfort to be within their nakedness.
Do communicate to others whether you are in a social mood or not
Do communicate to others before turning lights on/off, lighting incense, or playing music to change
the vibe
Do communicate to those whose actions are not inconsiderate
for example:
Excuse me, could you please lower your voice to maintain tranquility?
or
Those jokes are not expressing comfort or tranquility which is what the space is about, please stop
with the put-down/shaming jokes.
or
When you express your suffering or sorrow in that way, it brings on my own suffering. Is there a way to redirect
the heart for the space to be grounding, nurturing and tranquil for all of us in this moment?
Do call the stewards if there is a problem with anything or any person immediately
Do have a beautiful re-creative relaxing tranquil, nonthreatening experience through the radical
vulnerability that is the Naked community
Do renew your membership before the first of every quarter thank you.
Hi Mike, Welcome to the naturist community! I don't like to label people as problems. That doesn't show respect or acceptance. Similarly, as I expressed in another reply, I don't like to label words/acronyms as "dirty" language. This isn't an agenda. It's a way in which we can speak about how to support everyone whom is not included in mainstream programming.
And let's face it, naturists tend to not be included in any mainstream programming, so we have a common bond to start with on that issue. Policies that support anti-harassment (for example, telling another person "Your body, my choice), that actively seek to rectify discrimination based on race or sexuality, and that articulate codes of conduct on ways we interact with each other are as old as time.
I believe that those seeking to keep the naturist community alive are not just seeking to keep places that are clothing optional open but also the principles on which naturism has existed for years. An articulation of them seeks to preserve this.
I've tried tirelessly to be an advocate for these very principles over the last few years, and let me tell you... It's a thankless and frustrating job. You are right to be skeptical. Even on Wreck Beach, a place that... Before the pandemic... Was a Haven of comfort and safety for all, have I seen a massive increase in disgusting behavior from men, including a few long time regulars that have suddenly become emboldened enough that they've created little 'cliques' where they only allow 'young hot people' in their spaces, while simultaneously going on the Wreck Beach Facebook group to lament the lack of good looking tanned people.
Then there's ONLINE. From Twitter to private owned websites, the proliferation of misogyny has been brutal. 'Nudist' men shoving porn and erotica into everyone's faces, commenting endlessly on women's accounts with gross objectification, posting penis-centric selfies, attacking anyone that calls them out, commenting negatively on diversity stories, etc.
We've seen plenty of examples here on Planet Nude as well, and that's just the ones that are bold enough to be outwardly nasty... Because you're right in that we have a problem with too many people that are SILENT on this issue. Perhaps they don't want to rock the boat. Perhaps they've built friendships they aren't strong enough to stand up to, perhaps they sit in agreement but don't want to say it out loud yet... Whatever the case, the most frustrating thing for me is watching too many people simply stay silent as we watch society devolve in real time all around us. While women disappear from nudist spaces consistently, and we're left with a hundred posts from men (and some women that are married to the patriarchy) wondering where the hell the women are.
Here's the thing men.. Women aren't stupid. They see you. They see what you are, and what you aren't. They aren't going to hang out in spaces where they are being objectified, depowered and infantilized. They aren't going to feel free and safe in spaces filled with pornography and rude comments and negative reactions to queer inclusivity and silence or hostility to progressive issues.
And while there are some women that are able to stick with it and fight for the right to be in these spaces, it can't be used as an anecdote that so many men's awful behaviour is fine. It isn't. The more we accept or stay silent about that behaviour the more it will grow, and everyone has a breaking point. I'm watching more and more long time nudist advocates fleeing the community, and it's upsetting and insane.
Yes. It's not fear that will make people leave. It's disengagement.
Exactly, we are no different to journalists and should be accountable for our views, posts etc.
If we quote facts figures then we should be able to provide proof if challenged, there is so much disinformation that now invades social media. People hide behind false identities and get away with gross conduct on a daily basis.
I believe if you want to engage on social media then you must provide some form of ID that links you to your profile. I know people will scream "Nanny State" but it may may people think before making crass comments and denigrating people.
Something has to be done or women will give up on SM, stop going to beaches, clubs, resorts ect. because they feel threatened.
Sad times ahead.
It is very scary and contrary to how I was brought up and lived my life. I see it getting much worse before better especially with what has happened in the States.
May God bless.
Then please keep living your life the way you know is right so that others can also live their lives. Be brave so that you can live your life knowing you are right with yourself.
To touch on one of the many points you raise, I think the notion of diversity, equity, and inclusion is going to need a rebrand. "They" have managed to make "DEI" a dirty, much derided term. And while "they" do indeed favor discrimination, marginalization, and exclusion, many still aren't willing to admit it out loud, so a new expression is needed to fight discrimination, marginalization, and exclusion. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's too late for the USA.
It's never too late. We can't start thinking like that. We just need to be stronger about being more steadfast. Loud. Strong. Drown out the crap... And I don't mean online, although it's true there as well, but where it would be effective for real is offline. Don't allow people to be that way. Cut them out of your lives. Forbid them from being in spaces. Vocally counter their rhetoric at every turn.
I believe that the majority of people want a better world, but we've been conditioned all our lives that respect = quiet. That conformity = value. That obiedience = love.
It's time to break that.
We have experience with them trying to create newspeak. Just shake your head and ignore them. This is not about trying to win anyone over. It is about keeping the naturist community thriving, which has been identified as a key issue.
You know what really gets on the nerves of people with narcissistic personalities? It's not engaging with them. Ignoring them. Resistance is existence and ongoing existence for naturism is clearly communicating our values in our spaces.
If people who are not affected by these things feel reluctant to do so, imagine how the people who are affected feel. Imagine how silence is sending the message that the simple assertion of the values you have is not worth it for another human being. That you won't even use your voice, your face, your name to articulate your own values that could help them find common ground.
When I talk about being vocal I don't mean engaging in arguments or 'conversation', I mean making a blunt statement of 'this is not acceptable' and then walking away, or, if you're in the position to, banning them from that space. Management, supervisors, etc can do this. For those worried about losing revenue believe me when I say that showing a strong front against hate will lead to far more people spending their income with you than the other way around... Unless you peddle hate.
Today's "DEI" is just a trap creating a "shame everyone" equality that's literally what people go to naturist resorts to escape.
Naturism should change the dialog to (something like) acceptance, rules, and the benefits of a culture of shared vulnerability.
I respectfully disagree that this is what DEI stands for -- I actually feel it's similar to what you described and think those are really great starting places for conversations. If you have been shamed by someone in relation to this before, I offer sincere empathy. I know neither of us can take responsibility for each other's experiences, but dialogue about acceptance and shared vulnerability are good places to build from. For me, I would like to reserve the right to use the acronym and full words of diversity, equity and inclusion, because those are principles that embody a lot of integrity.
I also want to touch on something I missed in my original comment, and that's the rhetoric we often get when we try to get these points across of 'just focus on the positive and lead by example'. Guess what? That doesn't always work. Sometimes the bad is so prominent that it just drowns the positive out and burns out the person trying so hard.
Take my experience in one online community. When I first joined it was a wonderful experience. People seemed upbeat and said all the right things. However, as time went by I noticed something. While 'registered user' numbers kept rising, engagement started falling. Close to the end of my time there a trend was starting that led to my eventual departure. That of men posting things that were both outright against the rules and things that pushed the edge. While the outright stuff WAS dealt with, the stuff that pushed the edges kept getting excuses thrown as to why it should be allowed to remain. Yet as these images kept growing, the posts from other members dropped. Especially from accounts from women and families. The other disturbing aspect was that these images were getting FAR more 'likes' and positive comments than images of a more positive and uplifting nature. So not only was the community making excuses for these images, but they were being actively complicit in supporting them... And then also wondering why more women and family accounts weren't active.
Try as I might, no amount of trying to push a positive message worked... Until I finally burnt out, tired and angry, and felt I had no choice but to cut my losses while I could.
The true tragedy is that the owners of this site are some of the most positive people I've ever met... But they unfortunately fell into the same trap that people relying on a naturist space income fall into. They couldn't take hard stances when it became increasingly clear that their main source of that income was increasingly men looking to transform the space into a cruising venue.
Yet, had they been more concerned with quality over quantity earlier on... Perhaps they could have stemmed that flow. I don't know. Perhaps not. It definitely takes more than just the leadership to maintain a community.
I fully agree that women face daunting circumstances for participation in naturism. And it's fine for sensible men to advocate opposing the behavior of so many male (pseudo-)naturists. But righteous indignation of a few goes only so far and is hardly sufficient.
I don't know about other countries, but there should be a U.S. naturist organization that is of, by, and for women. One in which male participation is welcome - if and only if they support female naturists with actions, not just words.
AANR now has a female president, and that's great. But how much will that change anything? TNS(F) has always had a strong female presence in its leadership. Nicky has been there from the beginning and deserves praise for her efforts. Yet TNS keeps shrinking. AANR (and TNSF possibly) should have a woman who's tasked to promote naturism to women, just as British Naturism does.
So where to from here? Who's going to step up to stimulate actions, not just words?
Question: Should there be a female-oriented organization to arrange and promote female-only gatherings around the country? Participants in such gatherings could also arrange for special mixed-gender events at established naturist clubs, perhaps if gender parity was required.
The issue with that approach is that if the only solution for women is to build their own spaces, they would likely be for women only. Many female-led events tend to be exclusively for women. And I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling exhausted that their rights aren't stood up for but their coattails are asked to be ridden.
A woman-focused organization doesn't imply women-only. The purpose would be to use their resources to encourage women, not discourage men (if they honestly support women). Women-only events might be few, but approximate gender-balance should be encouraged more often than it is now (which is rare). It's just sensible for women to have as safe and comfortable entry to naturism as possible.
I would note that in various other countries where naturism exists, local organizations sometimes rent swimming pools for swimsuit-optional women-only use. That seems like a fine way for women to ease into naturism.
Steps like women led organizations can only go so far. It is up to MEN to lead a proper change, but men keep refusing to do so or make excuses.
I'd prefer to say that it's up to BOTH men and women taking the lead in the best (though different) ways that they can. Men need to show no tolerance for the bad behavior of other men. But women need the courage to make their own contributions - and not assume that would be futile.
That's why I said the efforts of women can only go so far
Yes, and the efforts of MEN can likewise only go so far. Men have a negative role: to restrain inconsiderate men. Women have a positive role to promote naturism to other women.
I am missing a few links...
(1) The author say he doesn't want to visit a specific naturist community he is familiar with, a community of "people I’d come to know and respect"... because why exactly? He thinks the people he knows and respects may suddenly reveal themselves to be misogynistic? Or is it something else? I'm not sure.
(2) "the silence from so many about this pervasive misogyny" seems to be the general worry. But what is the pervasive misogyny exactly? what are a few specific examples of it? and is it truly getting worse? (people tend to always be thinking everything is getting worse... such as rates of violence, which are actually getting better pretty much every year, minus 2020, for decades.) - Does it come down to a general feeling about Trump... that most of the people who voted for him are sexist? I don't really think there is evidence for that: https://musaalgharbi.substack.com/p/a-graveyard-of-bad-election-narratives
(3) if people need to speak out against pervasive misogyny, as the author wishes, what is a good way to do it? I'm all for it, but like what should the men at his naturist group do exactly? Since they already seem to not act misogynistic... should they simply state every so often "I don't like misogyny"?
This article is just lacking specifics. I would be interested to read a version that has a few details filled in.
I also believe in trusting people. Especially one's own friends and communities. Let's not let our fears and possible political disagreements destroy ourselves and our communities based on hunches.
The author is a woman. And the woman is being very careful about not dividing along political lines. And there have been multiple headlines of the same sort about misogyny increasing; a simple Google search will turn that up. Thank you and have a good day.
Ah I see. Thank you for the clarification, and my bad that I made an assumption that this was a man writing, not sure why I read it like that. And I understand better your perspective just with that alone.
Misogyny is definitely something that is a problem, around all corners and definitely within naturism. And I'm sorry if you have had to deal with it, and I'm sure you have.
As far as stats I am aware of (from google searching and more), sexual assualt / r*pe / harassment / etc, are all on a continuous long term decrease, at least here in the US. As is at least some of the ease with which men have been able to do at least some of these things, due in large part to the much needed #metoo movement. I'm not saying that misogyny isn't still a big problem. And that's not to say that it can't increase all of a sudden back to previous levels. - But due to all the stats I am aware of, it is decreasing. - But there also is a pretty big delay of a year or two, in stats like this being compiled... so it's also true that if things are getting worse now, it might not be exactly known the extent, for some time. - Again, unless I am just missing some stats that I am unaware of.
I do wonder if the anonymous / non-face-to-face nature of the internet, alongside many trolls and bots, and presidents :( , does increase some of the vocality of misogyny in online spheres and in random discussions?
I wonder if various women are feeling men being more misogynistic to them in their actual lives lately? Or if it is more a perception based on viral characters and trolls and perhaps divisive media as well amplifying all the worst things that happen and all the worst things about everyone.
I'm not sure, I'm open to being wrong about some of this.
And again, my bad and I apologize for a part of what I initially said in my initial reading. I can understand big time any woman being unsure about being around 80% of men, in any and all cases.
No worries. I hadn't realized the gender ambiguity of a name with only initials prior to this, which was not my intention when choosing it as a handle.
Just FYI, there's a lot of articles remarking on the increase in misogynistic speech online. Nick Fuentes started it but others are rapidly adding to it, such as Andrew Tate. And Tate has been active in creating attitudes like this among young males for a long time, along with many others.
The problem with allowing speech like this is that when it becomes more normalized/less taboo, it changes how people see the person they are speaking of. It objectifies and dehumanizes them. When that happens, it becomes easier for them to attack others because they don't see the other person as human. That is when violence starts to go up.
Unfortunately, violence against women and girls is not on a continual decline. The pandemic saw an increase in violence for a variety of reasons. It makes sense it may have somewhat declined from there but it's only a matter of time until it goes up if these words are not countered.
This is why words matter. Speaking up matters. Standing up matters. More than people might realize.
Thank you for engaging kindly with me despite my initial stupidity in some of what I said/assumed.
And thank you for providing some concrete specifics like the popularity of Fuentes and Tate, that helps me to ground some of your thoughts in specific examples. I am sometimes out of the loop with certain things so that's helpful to keep me from making my own guesses about what you are referring to; and these things do also make sense.
That's also true that violence had one of the biggest single-year spikes in American history in 2020. Goes to show that things can get worse quickly as you rightfully point out. - I believe black males saw the brunt of that 2020 increase, at least for homicide, but I'm sure it went up for women as well. -- Thankfully even the 2020 violence rate was lower than most of American history, it was just crazy in how rapid of an increase it was from the previous year. Thankfully it went back down and hopefully it stays down and goes even way lower, but that will only happen with people such as yourself standing up as you do 🙏
Thank you so much, as always, for bravely speaking your words into the world! I wish there were more women on your comments' thread- I wish there were more women in the naturist community but as you said, that's a symptom and not the problem. The problem is we do not have enough supporters in the naturist community for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging- nor enough who accept and value those who look different than a typical nudist resort. They may feel they do, but if they do not use their voice as you have and publicize it, then we will continue to dissolve and lose all those naturist philosophies we all know and love to objectification, open harassment, and misogyny. And so the reticent are the problem to the future of modern American Nudism and not bureaucrats nor real estate agents. It's not partisan, it's respect and kindness.
Not going to an event because there "might" be misogyny seems a bit extreme. There is no way to force women to come to an naturist event if they don't want to. A ratio of 3 - 5 five to one seems about normal for most events.
The last time I went camping bare, it was three guys and one woman. The last nude hike I went on, there were seven guys and no women. Another time it was two and five. Yet, I didn't see any misogyny at all. The smaller number of women were respected and enjoyed the activity. If they felt unwelcome or put upon, they would not show up again.
I have come to accept that it is what it is. Naturist activities where equal numbers show up have to be carefully curated. I don't go to naturist activities to pick up on women so the ratio does not matter. The absence of women doesn't in any way imply discrimination; it is a matter of differing choices between the genders. It has more to do with norms in the larger culture.
You can't push women into naturism and excluding men in the search for a balance is just another form of discrimination.. You can only make it inviting and safe. If more men than women choose to be naturists, that's not something naturists can control.
Hi Fred -- I read your note when you posted and didn't feel I was in the right mindset to reply. But I saw it again in my notifications and wanted to do so now.
I understand what you're saying in terms of the practicalities of things. I think most women who practice naturism are accustomed to it. However, from my perspective, I not only have to do the work of framing things for another gender who may not see things the way I do because I am a minority, but I also need to do the work of honouring my own boundaries emotionally.
So no, I don't think choosing not to go because of what is in the news or on social media or other things that may come up is extreme. It's actually very good self-care. I hope that you can respect this perspective as well as your own.
In my city, I am the caretaker of a relaxation meditation space. We have agreements a code of conduct, and we send out examples of modeling behavior to our community. For example, when someone walks into the space, here's how you introduce yourself and we give an example. We don't tell people they have to do this, but it is an agreement that. We will be mindful in the space. We have modeling behavior, suggestions for example if someone's in the sauna, and you want the temperature changed here are some ways to communicate that. We never say this is what you have to do, but having that type of posting for people to read gets people to be mindful of how they talk to one another and share the space in a respectful way.
The most interesting aspect of this community is that there are only maybe five of our 100 community members that identify as a nudist a naturist. All of the other people are textiles who have a greed to come to the space to share in exploring the radical vulnerability of healthy, social, naked environment.
It can work the thing that I've noticed for other communities I've visited is there is this general agreement of how to act toward one another yet? There isn't a specific postings modeling the behavior that is expected.
what would that look like? for example this is one of our postings:
The Community Do’s
Do say hello to our new members or those whom you have not yet met.
Do offer a friendly handshake
guys: the handshake means hello nothing more nothing less
gals: the handshake means hello nothing more nothing less
Do take a shower before entering the tub and after a sauna or massage. If you don’t know the person
showering, ASK if they mind you using the other shower. Be mindful of those waiting to
shower, SHARE THE HOT WATER PLEASE
Do find comfort/acceptance in your skin.
Respect and honor the extraordinary trust of the emotional and physical nakedness of the space. If you are in transition exploring this comfort yet still too vulnerable, DO wear a towel though not in the tubs. Guests may wear a suit(no underwear) members MUST be at a point of comfort to be within their nakedness.
Do communicate to others whether you are in a social mood or not
Do communicate to others before turning lights on/off, lighting incense, or playing music to change
the vibe
Do communicate to those whose actions are not inconsiderate
for example:
Excuse me, could you please lower your voice to maintain tranquility?
or
Those jokes are not expressing comfort or tranquility which is what the space is about, please stop
with the put-down/shaming jokes.
or
When you express your suffering or sorrow in that way, it brings on my own suffering. Is there a way to redirect
the heart for the space to be grounding, nurturing and tranquil for all of us in this moment?
Do call the stewards if there is a problem with anything or any person immediately
Do have a beautiful re-creative relaxing tranquil, nonthreatening experience through the radical
vulnerability that is the Naked community
Do renew your membership before the first of every quarter thank you.